So I'm Really Tempted To Switch To Waterless Coolant

"Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire" (arch-duke-maxyenko)
02/10/2015 at 16:54 • Filed to: None

But I need to find the time or the place to do it. I do believe that it would really increase the life of my motor and I would never have to change the coolant as it's a lifetime product.

DISCUSSION (19)

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/10/2015 at 17:12

Is there still any pressure when using Evans? I want to save up for it to avoid blown reservoirs.

handyjoe > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/10/2015 at 17:15

That stuff tends to be uber expensive, and once water gets into the system, you may as well be using regular coolant.

Works pretty well, though.

I'm also not sure on the thermal properties of Evans coolant, if it cools as well as water/coolant. I know straight ethylene glycol does not cool as well as water, but I don't remember if Evans (propylene glycol) cools as well or not.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins)
02/10/2015 at 17:17

Still a pressurized system, but less vapor pressure. Also no corrosion.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > handyjoe
02/10/2015 at 17:18

It'll cool just fine, but it's cheaper than a water pump and you only have to put it in once.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > handyjoe
02/10/2015 at 17:36

It doesn't have as high a heat capacity. Full stop. This means that holding the overall heat being removed from the engine as a constant (typical at a specific power output), the coolant runs hotter to remove the same amount of heat. Coolant temp might be 190 instead of 180. Evans appears to sell based on that increase being slight, but any setup that's not a little overcapacity and designed to run quite hot already (e.g. pressurized) isn't going to do well. Where it helps is if a system is typically running, say, nearly 200 flat, which may coincide with 5% or more flashboiling at engine hot spots. The Evans might run 210, but without the boiling, so it'd be better for the engine or certainly not any worse.

IOW, it can "cool as well" if by that we mean remove enough heat from the engine to keep it operating safely, into and above normal trouble zones. The engine just wont' actually be as cool.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/10/2015 at 17:38

I don't have anything that it would help. The Rover is carbureted with an all-iron cooling system (vapor lock HO), the Ranchero would be marginal and impaired in efficiency (Rovers operate best on the cool side, <185F), and the Benz is already quite hot as a diesel - hot enough to hurt power due to air heating. If you have something it'll do well in, go for it, but make sure that's the case first.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/10/2015 at 17:59

Leno swears by the stuff in his Duesenburgs and bugattis. I want to put it in my 128 to help extend the life of its magnesium/aluminum engine block and its $400 water pump.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/10/2015 at 18:20

You're probably far enough north that you can get away with it just fine. It's entirely fine if you've got enough radiator, an engine that has good oil circulation/etc. that won't mind a few extra degrees, fuel injection or a hot weather capable carb, and some actual need.

Let me give you some actual numbers. A 90HP engine will need to dump about 50,000BTU/hr. Ordinary water can dump that at 10GPM if the entry temp to the radiator is 190F and the exit is 180F. Pure propylene glycol will need 40% more flow, *or* as little as 5F increase in entry temp, so long as the radiator can still output 180F air. Very often it can. More likely, you'd see a couple degrees up coming back from the radiator, but as long as the *differential* between entry and exit is good, you're dumping the same heat more or less. A large percentage increase in entry/exit differential is very easy to obtain - in the example we went from 10 degrees to 15 degrees (50%!) with very little impact to the engine.

If, however, some aspect of the design makes for being unable to dump much more heat, everything here goes to hell. Airflow issues, core flow issues, and so forth.

If you want to play around with numbers to extract a given MBH with a given set of temps and flow, Google "Bell & Gossett Syzer". It's a refrigeration industry toy for liquid cooling application for A/C and the like - it's free. You can look at different PG percentages, flow losses, lots of things.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/10/2015 at 18:26

I've taken thermo, but they do sell a diesel formula and vintage car formula, so I'd imagine that this stuff would work just fine in your motors. But I'm just excited about the fact that it's nontoxic and noncorrosive.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/10/2015 at 18:37

It's not even that it wouldn't, but each case has specific issues that make me say "no". Quite a lot of *vintage* cars or diesels would be fine with those mixes, but it's definitely not for everybody. In the case of the Ranchero, I'm against the wall somewhat in terms of what I can dump with the radiators in terms of airflow, so it's not that I can't dump the heat, but that doing so already may have my engine above optimum temp - and that engine is *really* sensitive to temperature, not just in running. With the Benz, it's not intercooled and the turbo isn't doing its job, so every extra degree in the engine compartment robs me of power. I can feel the hit driving it when it's warmer out by even a few degrees. The Rover, well, it's oversize on cooling a bit, but there's little point, and the excess 5+ degrees coming out of the engine would still be... right where my fuel lines run.

I'd be tempted in your case to use a gauge on your setup to see just what the drop across your radiator is. If it's already really high as a drop with very high entry temps, I'd expect the swap to make it uncomfortably warm - not damaging outright, but probably warmer than it should be.

handyjoe > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/10/2015 at 18:39

There's the info I was looking for. I remembered the heat transfer properties weren't as great, but forgot how that all worked.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > handyjoe
02/10/2015 at 18:50

It's not really dire - it's all down to exit temps vs. entry temps. 40% better cooling with water means a delta T across your engine that's lower, but if that temp gain is only 10-20 degrees, the jump with Evans would be 4-8 overall. Not terrible, but might matter in some cases, and would matter enormously if the system used very slow flowrates. A really slow flowrate and really good (comparatively) passive cooling in the rad might make for 30 degrees F as a delta, or 40, which could make for a jump of 16 degrees on your top end temp in the worse case, or even more. The faster transfer to the surrounding air from a greater heat differential can't keep up. You won't hit a hard destructive limit at the boil point, but there may be other problems. If the system depends on having really good returns at the radiator, you're going to shock the system a lot by messing with it.

The moral is: use only with something more modern or something old about which you *know* the capabilities.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/10/2015 at 19:13

Directly from them:

Will Evans Waterless Coolant cause my engine to run at a higher temperature?

The operating temperature of the engine and coolant may increase slightly, by approximately 3-7 degrees. However the temperature inside the engine will be consistent and steam vapor will not be produced. i.e engines often run cooler with Evans Waterless Coolants.

I don't think that I'll have any temperature issues

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/10/2015 at 19:19

No doubt. It's all down to whether the system has advantage operating that way and whether improved wetting and boil resistance will help in a given case - most probably show *some* improvement. There's enough variation that it's not a dead cert in all cases, particularly not low-pressure and low flow systems.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/10/2015 at 19:30

It opperates at a lower pressure than normal and can be run in no pressure applications. That's the advantage of the much higher boiling point, no pressure is needed to raise the boiling temperature. So, you could in theory get rid of the expansion tank and be just fine.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/10/2015 at 19:35

It has a wide range of advantages, but I'm not the guy for it. If I had an 80s Euro car other than my Benz, or a Subaru, I totally would be. If I were running an actual Buick 215 I would be all over that shit. For my projects at present, however, mostly not. It is what it is... which is not the substance for high-delta low flow stuff you want to run super-chilly and don't need to boil or corrosion protect.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/10/2015 at 19:40

Just keep it in mind for the day that you finally decide to drop a proper nailhead in the beast.

RallyWrench > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/10/2015 at 19:42

I have a client with the nicest E39 540i I've ever seen who swears by the stuff and has used it in other vehicles for years.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > RallyWrench
02/10/2015 at 19:45

Jay Leno also uses it.